[转贴]三句话噎死西人！（答案参考，不断更新）

poplar23hx · 发表于 11.4.2008 23:27:48

Freiburg没人搞游行，大家至少应该从身边做起吧！请多多充实自己，有必要的时候跟身边人辩论到底！

1、中国占领西藏
答：你从哪里学的中国历史？西藏是自己要归顺的，就像Bayern当年国王把钱用光了主动归顺普鲁士一个道理。
Where did you learn chinese history?  Tibet came over to China and pledged allegiance actively, as the king of Bayern (Bavaria) spent all of his money and had to came over to Germany (Preuß.

Wo stammt Ihre Erkenntnis über die Geschichte Chinas? Tibet ist aus der geschichlichen Entwickung her Teil Chinas geworden. Der Streit um die Grenzziehung macht hier keinen Sinn, ansonsten müssten wir über mindestens 170 Fälle auf der Welt diskutieren, ob es in diesen Fällen auch eine Unabhängigkeit ausgesproche werden müsste. Die Tatsache ist, dass die Europäer fast in der ganzen Welt Flächen für sich beansprucht haben, obwohl ihre Vorfahren ganz woanders begraben liegen, siehe Nord- Aüdamerika, Südafrika. Wer sind die Großlandbesitzer in Afrika? Chinesen? weiße Europäer!

(diesen Teil würde ich weglassen: das ist in gewisser Weise vergleichbar mit dem König von Bayern, der nach seinem Finanzkollaps freiwillig zu Preußen angehören wollte).

2、西藏人是二等公民
答：西藏人不用缴税，每年还有补贴，人均收入比中国平均高。在你们国家，有这种待遇的二等公民吗？
The people in Tibet don't have to pay tax.  What's more, Chinese government gives them extra money every year.  The average income of the people in Tibet is higher than the average in the whole China.  Is there any "second-class" citizen like this in your country?

Die Tibeter müssen keinen Steuer zahlen, sie erhalten darüber hinaus noch weitere finanzielle Unterstützung von der Regierung, so dass ihr Einkommen durchschnittlich mehr liegt als das der anderen im restlichen China. Gibt es in Ihrem Land Leute, die so „zweitklassig“ behandelt werden?

3、中国破坏西藏的传统文化
答：是西方破坏中国文化，看看中国满街的西装。。。
The western countries destroy Chinese culture.  See how many people in China is wearing western style suits!

Es sind die Europäer, die unsere Kultur zerstören, wenn man die Anzüge überall in China sieht.
(Besser wäre: es sind gerade die Europäer, die die Kulturen der anderen zerstören, sehen Sie in Nord- und Südamerika, in Afrika und Asien. Die Kulturen dort können nicht gepflegt werden und werden Schritt für Schritt europäisiert)

4、西藏没有宗教自由
答：没有宗教自由，哪来的那么多喇嘛？还能让你们采访？
How can you see so many monks (Lamas) if there's no freedom of religion in China?  And your reporters have interviewed them already!

Wenn es keine Religionsfreiheit gäbe, würde man dort nicht so viele Mönche haben. Wen könnten Sie noch interviewen?

6、为什么不和达赖对话？
答：达赖自己都说了，他和中国官方一直保持着对话。
Dalai himself has said, he and Chinese government keep dialog all the time.

Ferner sagt selbst Dalai , dass er stets im Dialog mit der chinesischen Regierung stehe.

7、中国镇压和平示威？
答：这是和平示威吗？
Is this a "peaceful" demo?

Kann man die Demonstration noch  als „friedlich“ bezeichnen?

8、西藏人有和平示威的机会吗？
答1：有。你说没有，请拿出证据。
Of course they have the chance.  Show your proof if you say no.
答2：和第7题矛盾（注：仅用于7 8联问的情形）
It's contradicting your previous question.

Ja, sie haben es, Oder Sie können Gegenteiliges beweisen?

9、西藏人都支持独立，热爱达赖
答：证据？你有民调数据？
Your proof?  Did you make any poll (survey)?

Ihr Beweis? Haben Sie statistische Erhebung dort durchgeführt, in der die Willen der Menschen belegbar sind?

10、中国隐瞒事实
答：你们国家难道没有隐瞒事实？
Didn't your country and your media hide the truth?

Hat Ihr Land das etwa nicht getan?

11、中国为什么不允许西藏独立？
答：德国为什么不允许Bayern独立还要几次派军队去镇压？
Why the german government doesn't allow Bayern independence?  And they sent troops multiple times to suppress?
法国为什么不允许科西嘉独立还要派军队去镇压？
Why the french government doesn't allow Korsika independence?  And they sent troops to suppress?
英国为什么不允许北爱尔兰独立还要派军队去镇压？
Why the british government doesn't allow North Ireland independence?  And they sent troops to suppress?
加拿大为什么不允许魁北克独立？
Why canadian government doesn't allow Quebec independence?

Warum darf Bayern nicht unabhängig werden? Die Deutschen haben mehrfach diese Versuche mit Truppen niedergeschlagen (Siehe historische Belege Seite…)
Die gleiche Frage stellt sich auch für Frankreich mit Korsika, England mit Nordirland, Kanada mit Quebec!
……

12、在中国你有上电视自由表达的机会吗？
答1：我自己就上过N次电视，我有录像，你要不要看？
I talked in the TV for several times.  And I have the recordings.  Would you like to have a look?
答2：我倒是想看看你在你们国家电视上自由表达的录像。
I'm eager to see the recordings that you express yourself on your TV.  Please show me.

1: Ich bin selber bereits mehrmals im Fernsehen. Ich habe die Aufzeichnung dafür, möchten Sie sie sehen?
2: Übrigens habe ich großes Interesse, zu sehen, wie Sie im Fernsehen frei über Ihre Meinung geäußert haben.

13、在中国你有上街游行的机会吗？
答：在我生活的华中最大的城市，每年都有游行。我有照片，你要不要看一下？要不要明年你出我的飞机票，我带你去看看中国的游行？我要坐国航头等舱……（估计这个时候他已经脸绿了）
In the big city where I lived, there's demo every year.  I have some pictures.  Would you like to have a look?  Or... you pay me the first-class ticket next year and I will bring you to see our demo.  OK?

In der Großstadt, wo ich lebe, gibt es jedes Jahr zahlreiche Demonstrationen, Ich habe Fotos gemacht, haben Sie Interesse, sie zu sehen?

14、中国人怎么喜欢民族主义？

答：正是由于德国没什么民族主义，所以现在还有美军驻扎。
Because there's no more nationalism in Germany, the American troops are still in your country.
问：日本的民族主义很强，但一样有美军驻扎啊。
答：日本的民族主义还不够强，所以没有原子弹，所以赶不走美军。
The nationalism of the Japs (注意不要用Japanese) are not strong enough, so they don't have atom bombs.  So they are not able to get rid of the American troops.
(Bin nicht einverstanden mit dieser Antwort)

Meine Antwort: Chinesen sind eher Patriotisten als Nationalisten. Das sind zwei unterschiedliche Begriffe. Patriotismus heißt: das Vaterland liebend, Nationalismus: die eigene Nation liebend/bevorzugend (Hier neigt man dazu, andere auszuschließen). Warum sollen die Chinesen nicht ihr eigenes Land lieben? Sie haben Gründe genug dazu, dies zu tun, im Gegensatz zu den Deutschen. Wenn Sie Genaueres wissen wollen, lesen Sie bitte die Geschichte Chinas. Darin finden Sie sicher die Antwort.

15. 中国政府压迫藏人，所以藏人才谋求独立。要是没有压迫，也就不会独立了。
答：Bayern境内就有一个党派叫拜仁党 Bayern Partei，长期致力于拜仁独立。照你的逻辑，你们德国一样压迫Bayern的人民了！Bayern照样是没民主没人权的地方！
There is a party in Bavaria (Bayern Partei).  They struggle for Bayern independence.  According to your logic, you german guys are suppressing Bavarians, too!  Bayern is also a place without democracy and human rights!

ihg · 发表于 12.4.2008 00:07:30

治敌还需良策，顶

woge · 发表于 12.4.2008 00:30:54

网上看到这个不错，转一下大家看看。

I listened to an NPR program about the situation in Tibet this morning and the dialog was fascinating.

The first thing that surprised me was that we had normal Americans (however sympathetic to the Dalai Lama ) acknowledging that normal Han Chinese were targets of violence from the militant Tibetans but this “was a reasonable and understandable reaction to the Chinese government’s policies”. If the civilians had been Israelis and the militants were Palestinian, or civilians anywhere else for that matter, would any Americans sided with those who at other times would be called the terrorists?

The Chinese government has tried to develop the Tibetan economy, maybe with the thought that wealthier Tibetans would be happier and less religious and separatist. The crowning achievement of this was the railroad to Tibet (a very expensive engineering feat given the mountains to scale) that some people hope to extend to India one day. (The Indians are very interested too.) This railroad is creating much new economic opportunity as well as more immigrants from outside Tibet . This railroad was cited by the one of the NPR panelists as one of the new Chinese offenses that forced the civil unrest. This was the second thing that surprised me. When I hear the complaints from other remote low economic activity areas, the complaints are usually the opposite: “The local economy is stagnant, there is no future here for our kids, we need the government to do something to help the local economy.” This is the one time when the locals apparently don’t want a better economy.

In the past, when I thought about Tibet , I used to have an anti communist knee jerk, wishing freedom for the "oppressed" Tibetans. I also wished independence for Taiwan because the PRC was communist and anti freedom. I don’t think of the PRC like that any more. China is a country going through tremendous changes and with a government that is firmly in charge. This will probably change over time, but for now it is good to have a government that can do what is right, to build infrastructure, and not always have to worry about opinion polls and getting re-elected. I have talked to many Indians who wished they had a government like the Chinese. If you imagine that China was the US and Tibet and Taiwan wanted to secede, you probably would be less sympathetic to the secessionists. At least Lincoln was.

I now view the Tibet issues as an inferior economic system being unable to defend itself against a stronger economy that is taking over what looks like unclaimed or at least under exploited territory. It is less extreme, but it is the same process that wiped to the Native American culture. Historically China started controlling Tibet in the 1200s. (The Mongols who conquered China in 1271, the Yuan dynasty, took Tibet in 1244. China has exercised some control over Tibet ever since, so the Chinese claim to rule Tibet is more ancient than any border in Europe . The only time Tibet had real self determination was between 1913 and 1951 because British interventions and China ’s internal turbulence and civil wars (and WW2 and Japanese invasion). When China reasserted itself in 1951, it gave Tibet Proper special autonomy but some outlying areas in the east, closer to populated China , were treated as China Proper which meant “full land redistribution” communist style. This was opposed by the old local land owners (aristocrats and monasteries) who rebelled. The rebellion spread to Lhasa but was crushed in 1959. This is when the Dalai Lama left.

From what I can tell, Tibet was not a good place to be in 1951. Most people were serfs and there were even slaves, signs of a very poor and backwards country. For the average Tibetan in Tibet Proper, things only got better when the Dalai Lama left and full land distribution was implemented in Tibet Proper too. It is always possible to play an “us versus them” game, just look at the “ethnic cleansing” in old Yugoslavia , and the same happened in Tibet . While the average Tibetan benefited from the Chinese takeover, both economically and from a human rights perspective (imagine how strange it is to think of the PRC as the bringer of human rights, but it is true!), it was always easy to find Tibetans resenting the Chinese. To me, this is the main reason I have changed my view on Tibet and China . It seems to me that it makes perfect sense that Tibet stay part of China and as time goes on becomes more and more integrated. The main opposition to this inevitable trend is the old elite. This elite pushed a self serving and backwards way of life that was completely non competitive with the rest of the world. The normal way of fixing Tibet would have the oppressed majority kick out the old oppressors on their own, including predictable problems such as some level of anarchy and economic hardship. (This may happen in neighboring Nepal , even though Nepal is much more advanced than Tibet was.) China ’s takeover avoided that necessity, but because of our support for the old regime there is always a ready loudspeaker for, and instigator of, any local discontent. It helps that the current Dalai Lama is very charismatic and that Tibetan Buddhism is non violent and attractively philosophical. The crass truth is still that people want to use religion as a divisive (us versus them) and non progressive political force. Would we be as sympathetic if the Tibetans were Islamic?

I’m certain that the upcoming Olympics are part of the reason for the current unrest. China views the Olympics as a coming out event, and views a possible boycott as a disaster. Everybody knows that the Chinese response to any challenge will probably be more muted than it will be after the Olympics . I have even heard rumors that the Dalai Lama himself encouraged the initial demonstrations this week as “our last chance for independence”.

While I like the Dalai Lama as a person, I can’t support him as a political leader because a) I prefer not to mix religion and politics, and 2) I can’t support the politics of the Dalai Lama regardless of how good PR he gets.

juisec · 发表于 12.4.2008 08:11:54

恩，昨天问了。。中国的概念按现在的统治即中华人民共和国论，那西藏在60，70年前，的确是独立的。。目前中国对‘中国’的定义，上下经常数个朝代的跳跃，很不好解释。。
不过了，起码和我扯的几个德国人，也还都理解，即便即便是有一定程度上的独立的理由，在现代社会，已经罕见地区可以和国家抗衡的事情了。。。再有，这边人对达赖的认识，只是慈祥和蔼的精神领袖，的确对旧西藏的政教合一没啥概念。。。可以和他们说说教皇啊。。。一说教皇的权利和势力，就都理解了。。
至于中国政府的统治手段。。少谈的好，咱的确不是很啥啥的都公开。

Fridayshow · 发表于 12.4.2008 08:32:56

第一条还是别这么回答了。咱确实是打过去的。谁让他们打不过咱呢。是咱打得也别撒谎，反正50多年前了，那时候哪不打仗，这也没什么丢人的。
我们不能像日本人那样做过得不承认，也不能像德国媒体那样歪曲事实。是怎么样还是就怎么样说的好
就算那时候打西藏不对，占了这么多年也归我们了哈哈
这个世界上人权，自由都是扯淡。只有利益才是真实的
哪有一个国家得到了利益之后会放手的？我就没见过哪个国家主动把殖民地“解放的”。英国打马岛那比我们打西藏还晚呢，谁说他们错了？

[ 本帖最后由 Fridayshow 于 12.4.2008 09:34 编辑 ]

德云社 · 发表于 12.4.2008 11:11:27

这种好帖要狂顶啊!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

crystle · 发表于 12.4.2008 18:21:15

poplar23hx · 发表于 12.4.2008 20:28:51

在清朝的时候貌似西藏是主动归属于清政府的吧，解放战争的时候是不是可以说是解放国家的一部分？
达赖的问题是，西藏是政教合一的，现在教皇什么的早就不是政教合一了吧！而且他现在要求的是所谓的“一国两制”，要求中央政府给钱，不得干涉他们的其它事情，而且所谓的大西藏包括四川和青海，这种要求也太没有道理了。

我最近在狂补历史，恨自己知道得太少，逻辑不够清晰啊……

hardrock · 发表于 15.4.2008 14:24:46

还跟那些畜生废话，直接问他们
Warst du einmal in Tibet?(1000个德国人也不会有一个去过吧？？）
Dann hast du gar kein Recht zu schreien.
Bevor ich nach Deutschland kam,fand ich Deutschlnd so ein Nazisscheiss!Aber jetzt nicht mehr~
闪人~不给他叫嚣的机会

[ 本帖最后由 hardrock 于 15.4.2008 15:25 编辑 ]

LLSabrina · 发表于 15.4.2008 21:52:54

顶一下！！值得学习~

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